Training on Diviner Dataset

There are no resources and tools available online to use RDR dataset to generate maps . No tools available for modelling , processing etc . I would like to request a series of training on using Diviner dataset for a non programming background user too .

Hi @Satyam_Suman , probably @michaelaye could help/direct you to gather more info, and in case they do not exist yet, perhaps you could give a hand in putting them together.

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Hi,
I tried contacting him . But unfortunately wasn’t able get in touch . I wish I could get in touch with him because I am strucked at converting TB to Bolometric Brightness Temperature due to lack of my programming knowledge. I will be grateful if I get response and help from him .

Thank you very much for the response !!
Please help me to get in touch with him .

Thanks !
Satyam Suman

Hi Satyam,

sorry for not getting in touch, your previous emails requested to teach you basic physics, for which we simply don’t have the capacity to do so.
Can you explain why the published TBOL data, e.g. here are not sufficient?
Brightness temperatures cannot simply be converted to bolometric temperatures, because one has to work in radiance dimensions for the correct mathematics. As this procedure is very sensitive to each channel’s calibration, and our tools are a complex set of 30+ programs based on 20 years of development, there are no tools available to the public to create T_bol from scratch. Even if there were, the involved deep knowledge of the instrument’s parameters would most likely not lead to successful results.

Michael

Hi Sir,
I read all papers and procedures for generating RDR from EDR . I got that it needs a lot programming and knowledge of physics . I wasn’t aware and was very much curious about this dataset.
Dataset published are limited to year 2016 . Also, My study is focused on Cabeus crater . So, I need only channel 8 and 9 data . I have to prepare a very high resolution yearly map in order to understand if their is any change over a decade .
Also, Sir from Brightness Temperature given in RDR Bolometric Brightness Temperature generation isn’t possible ? I read the paper . Please find the screenshot attached . The difficulty I am facing is in performing integration in order to apply those formulas on my shapefile table .
If possible please provide a bit of guidance for the same .

Also the problem with me is that I am with no one to help me out with physics specially .

Thanks
Satyam Suman
Uploading: IMG_20200403_153422.jpg… Uploading: IMG_20200403_153429.jpg…

Hello,
please learn how to walk up a directory tree for links:

https://pds-geosciences.wustl.edu/lro/lro-l-dlre-4-rdr-v1/lrodlr_1001/data/gdr_l3/

Michael

So, I need only channel 8 and 9 data.

T_bol is always a combination of all channels that have significant data, so if it’s cold as in Cabeus, it will combine CH 8 and 9 automatically, I don’t understand what you mean by “you only need Ch 8 and Ch9”, as T_bol is exactly only one data product you would have to deal with?
The images you tried to attach are apparently still uploading, so I can’t reply to that. Maybe you provide the reference, page and equation or figure number, then I can look it up myself, to see what you mean.

Sir @michaelaye
My Laptop isn’t capable of handling huge dataset .So, I was using only ch8 and ch 9.
I was referring to below article on published . I saw the formula in supporting documents material pdf .
Article:- Diviner Lunar Radiometer Observations of Cold Traps in the Moon’s South Polar Region
Joshua L. Bandfield, Richard Elphic, Rebecca Ghent, Timothy D. Glotch, Michael B. Wyatt and Paul G. Lucey
Bruce C. Murray, Carlton C. Allen, Kelly Snook, Laurence A. Soderblom, Simon Calcutt, Fredric W. Taylor, Neil E. Bowles,
Benjamin T. Greenhagen, John T. Schofield, Daniel J. McCleese, Marc C. Foote, Eric DeJong, Bruce G. Bills, Wayne Hartford,
David A. Paige, Matthew A. Siegler, Jo Ann Zhang, Paul O. Hayne, Emily J. Foote, Kristen A. Bennett, Ashwin R. Vasavada,
DOI: 10.1126/science.1187726
Science 330 (6003), 479-482.

My Laptop isn’t capable of handling huge dataset .So, I was using only ch8 and ch 9.

Well, that’s why it even is more recommended to use the TBOL files, as then you don’t need to deal with channels. Are you saying that those files don’t provide sufficient resolution?

I also can highly recommend using https://quickmap.lroc.asu.edu as it allows you to add image data-sets to the Diviner data for context information in a highly performant web browser GUI.

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Sir ,
I do understand that but in my assignment I have to do it by myself . If I use that data then it won’t be considered my work. So , I need to do it by myself . I am getting new PC for the same . For the same reason I choose only the small area .i.e. Cabeus.

Hi Satyam,

This is not an appropriate place to ask for help with homework or basic scientific concepts. The folks here are generally willing to point people in the direction of tools, resources, or tricks that already exist for working with planetary data (because there are too many for any one person to be aware of all of them), but we are also almost all professional scientists operating at a very high level and also quite busy.

It sounds like the tools or resources to do what you want do not already exist. This crops up a lot in planetary science. There are too many data sets from too many different kinds of instruments, with too small a research community, for all of them to be well-supported. This is much different from the situation in terrestrial remote sensing where the core data sets are more standardized (e.g. Landsat) and the research community is larger. It is an often frustrating reality of our field.

In the case where the tools or methods do not exist, then you will have to create them if you want them. I don’t propose that will be easy, but you will learn a lot in the process. If and when you do create such resources, please return here to share them, because they might help someone else.

-Chase

Sir @Chase_Million ,
I am not asking for homework help nor the basic concepts .May be these concepts can be basic for them but for a newbie like me it’s not( don’t have a background in physics) . It’s really hard to work with something with no tools and help or training. I am just trying to understand the work in order to do it myself . If I get to any other way to do the same . Then I can share it with those who are very new to planetary science field and wants to work with Diviner .

I will try if I could find any alternative , which isn’t that easy as told above . But I will try if I could be of some help .

I do understand they are busy . I was just asking if I can get access to tools or there is any alternative way.

From the assignment I was referring to how I got into this Datasets . Also, If I am asking the how to process data and what are tools then will it counted as asking for homework help?It is still about training and education . Isn't it ?
Also , I was asking for training and tutorials for the same . I found a lot of difficulty while trying to use it . If I am wrong then you can close/delete this thread .

As asked in beginning I was asking for training not homework

Dear Satyam,
if you don’t have a background in physics, I highly advise against even trying to recreate T_Bol data yourself. If the published TBOL data is not sufficient, please describe why it isn’t and then we can discuss this within our team, to possibly produce such product. It just might be that we see the general use case for it. I do not understand why you would pick such a difficult task if not for the reason of advancing an already existing background in remote sensing. As I said before, averaging data in temperature space isn’t appropriate, each TB data has to be averaged and weighted in radiance space as the formulas in the supplement you were referring to clearly state. This isn’t a task one can just jump into for a homework.

Respected Sir @michaelaye,

I wanted data for the site where Ch-2 lander crashed . I want to see how effective this data set is in detecting that as compared to that of optical dataset. Also, I read paper regarding its effectiveness in detecting new craters . So , I was thinking if I can use ML for the detection of new craters using those parameters ? I saw how good features are highlighted using Diviner data . I am not using it for general purpose. Also, Can I get Cabeus dataset after 2016 and also thermal inertia map for the same(hourly data) . I saw some features within craters which wasn’t visible in CH-1 DEM .

This not my homework …I just saw how good this data set . So, was trying to get something that might help . Maybe it’s not that important but I was trying to get it for the same .

I wanted data for the site where Ch-2 lander crashed . I want to see how effective this data set is in detecting that as compared to that of optical dataset.

I’m pretty sure our team checked and didn’t see anything, otherwise we’d have a publication out. But of course double-checking never hurts.

Also, I read paper regarding its effectiveness in detecting new craters . So , I was thinking if I can use ML for the detection of new craters using those parameters ?

We are thinking about this as well for a while, specifically multi-instrument/wavelength feature detection, but it’s quite difficult due to the many empirical parameters involved, like emissivities at very low temperatures. We don’t even have good lab data for the things we would like to do.

Also, Can I get Cabeus dataset after 2016 and also thermal inertia map for the same(hourly data) .

I’m not sure what you mean by a “Cabeus dataset” as such thing doesn’t exist, but we have currently delay in producing all higher level datasets after 2016 due to working on a much more advanced and easier for the end-user database, which cost us so much work-force that we couldn’t prepare the next high-level data-products yet. They will hopefully be coming out later this year.
However, hourly temperature data is available for everything, so you would have to
go here (https://ode.rsl.wustl.edu/moon/indextools.aspx?displaypage=lrodiviner) and find the hourly files yourself.

I saw some features within craters which wasn’t visible in CH-1 DEM .

I don’t know what a CH-1 DEM is, Diviner doesn’t produce DEMs.

Sir,

  1. Can I get dataset for the lander site ?
  2. Cabeus refers to Cabeus crater . I want dataset for the region . ( Can I get it for 2016 to 2019 ? )
  3. CH-1 refers to Chandrayan 1 Terrain Mapping Camera dataset . If I get the dataset for the region where I see something within crater . Which is not visible in DEM data but was visible with Diviner brightness temperature data .

Thanks for providing with processed datasets. I will try to use those as the tools aren’t available as of now .

  1. Can I get dataset for the lander site ?

The above linked search engine can provides you will all RDR data (=TB) for any known region or by lat/lon coordinates. Just click on the feature list to have it filter the data automatically.

  1. Cabeus refers to Cabeus crater . I want dataset for the region . ( Can I get it for 2016 to 2019 ?

As I said, there is no TBOL mapped data for 2017 to 2019 available.
2016 is available in the link I posted above. TB data is available for all regions via above search engine.

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Sir ,
Thanks a lot for the quick responses .
Is there any tool for searching Bolometric Brightness Temperature rdr data ? Or the we have only directory access to that data ( last question ) .

If you come up with any tools available for public that will a great help to newbies like us . I request you if you can come up with some tutorials that can be useful for student community specially to develop more understanding .
Thanks !
Satyam